Discussion:
[julia-users] In what version is Julia supposed to "mature"?
Pileas
2015-07-28 19:27:18 UTC
Permalink
Greetings,

I have been following the development of Julia for sometime now and I am
really thrilled to know that you guys have reached version 0.3.11.

To my understanding sometime in the near future you will release the new
version 0.4.0., a version that it is supposed to bring many changes.

My question is simple: when is Julia expected to "mature", so that a
"universal" (more or less) documentation (or maybe more thorough books than
those that exist by now) will follow and less bug fixed will be needed?

I wish you the best!
Stefan Karpinski
2015-07-28 19:41:16 UTC
Permalink
Version 1.0 will be released around this time next year.
Post by Pileas
Greetings,
I have been following the development of Julia for sometime now and I am
really thrilled to know that you guys have reached version 0.3.11.
To my understanding sometime in the near future you will release the new
version 0.4.0., a version that it is supposed to bring many changes.
My question is simple: when is Julia expected to "mature", so that a
"universal" (more or less) documentation (or maybe more thorough books than
those that exist by now) will follow and less bug fixed will be needed?
I wish you the best!
Kevin Squire
2015-07-28 22:56:01 UTC
Permalink
Stefan, are you trolling again? ;-P

http://julialang.org/blog/2012/02/why-we-created-julia/
Post by Stefan Karpinski
Version 1.0 will be released around this time next year.
Post by Pileas
Greetings,
I have been following the development of Julia for sometime now and I am
really thrilled to know that you guys have reached version 0.3.11.
To my understanding sometime in the near future you will release the new
version 0.4.0., a version that it is supposed to bring many changes.
My question is simple: when is Julia expected to "mature", so that a
"universal" (more or less) documentation (or maybe more thorough books than
those that exist by now) will follow and less bug fixed will be needed?
I wish you the best!
Stefan Karpinski
2015-07-29 01:51:52 UTC
Permalink
That's literally the only part of that post that I would change :-)

But no, I'm not trolling, 1.0 should be out next year. Predicting down to
the month – or even quarter – is hard, but that's what I think we're
looking at. I'll post a 1.0 roadmap issue soon.
Post by Kevin Squire
Stefan, are you trolling again? ;-P
http://julialang.org/blog/2012/02/why-we-created-julia/
Post by Stefan Karpinski
Version 1.0 will be released around this time next year.
Post by Pileas
Greetings,
I have been following the development of Julia for sometime now and I am
really thrilled to know that you guys have reached version 0.3.11.
To my understanding sometime in the near future you will release the new
version 0.4.0., a version that it is supposed to bring many changes.
My question is simple: when is Julia expected to "mature", so that a
"universal" (more or less) documentation (or maybe more thorough books than
those that exist by now) will follow and less bug fixed will be needed?
I wish you the best!
Tony Kelman
2015-07-29 03:26:43 UTC
Permalink
I'm with Kevin, having followed development (too) closely for the last year
and a half I find the prospect of 1.0 any time during 2016 totally
ridiculous and unrelealistic. Unless you fully anticipate releasing 2.0
some time in 2017.
Post by Stefan Karpinski
That's literally the only part of that post that I would change :-)
But no, I'm not trolling, 1.0 should be out next year. Predicting down to
the month – or even quarter – is hard, but that's what I think we're
looking at. I'll post a 1.0 roadmap issue soon.
Post by Kevin Squire
Stefan, are you trolling again? ;-P
http://julialang.org/blog/2012/02/why-we-created-julia/
Post by Stefan Karpinski
Version 1.0 will be released around this time next year.
Post by Pileas
Greetings,
I have been following the development of Julia for sometime now and I
am really thrilled to know that you guys have reached version 0.3.11.
To my understanding sometime in the near future you will release the
new version 0.4.0., a version that it is supposed to bring many changes.
My question is simple: when is Julia expected to "mature", so that a
"universal" (more or less) documentation (or maybe more thorough books than
those that exist by now) will follow and less bug fixed will be needed?
I wish you the best!
Stefan Karpinski
2015-07-29 16:10:04 UTC
Permalink
Doing more frequent major releases than has been traditional for
programming languages strikes me as not a terrible idea, honestly.
Post by Tony Kelman
I'm with Kevin, having followed development (too) closely for the last
year and a half I find the prospect of 1.0 any time during 2016 totally
ridiculous and unrelealistic. Unless you fully anticipate releasing 2.0
some time in 2017.
Post by Stefan Karpinski
That's literally the only part of that post that I would change :-)
But no, I'm not trolling, 1.0 should be out next year. Predicting down to
the month – or even quarter – is hard, but that's what I think we're
looking at. I'll post a 1.0 roadmap issue soon.
Post by Kevin Squire
Stefan, are you trolling again? ;-P
http://julialang.org/blog/2012/02/why-we-created-julia/
Post by Stefan Karpinski
Version 1.0 will be released around this time next year.
Post by Pileas
Greetings,
I have been following the development of Julia for sometime now and I
am really thrilled to know that you guys have reached version 0.3.11.
To my understanding sometime in the near future you will release the
new version 0.4.0., a version that it is supposed to bring many changes.
My question is simple: when is Julia expected to "mature", so that a
"universal" (more or less) documentation (or maybe more thorough books than
those that exist by now) will follow and less bug fixed will be needed?
I wish you the best!
Stefan Karpinski
2015-07-29 16:28:13 UTC
Permalink
I do believe that other languages have not really followed the semantic
versioning specification (can't blame them really since it didn't exist)
and have introduced backwards incompatible changes in minor versions. If
we're going to follow semver, then we will very likely want to make major
releases more often since we will probably have some backwards incompatible
changes we want to introduce periodically, even if they're not huge.
Actually considering that we've been more strict about version discipline
than absolutely required by semver for 0.x.y, maybe we could pull a GCC and
just start treating major number the way we've been treating minor. It
might not be all that different, except we'd be able to do the "backporting
features" thing and have a very good way of dealing with it. So I retract
my incredulity.
Post by Stefan Karpinski
Doing more frequent major releases than has been traditional for
programming languages strikes me as not a terrible idea, honestly.
Post by Tony Kelman
I'm with Kevin, having followed development (too) closely for the last
year and a half I find the prospect of 1.0 any time during 2016 totally
ridiculous and unrelealistic. Unless you fully anticipate releasing 2.0
some time in 2017.
Post by Stefan Karpinski
That's literally the only part of that post that I would change :-)
But no, I'm not trolling, 1.0 should be out next year. Predicting down
to the month – or even quarter – is hard, but that's what I think we're
looking at. I'll post a 1.0 roadmap issue soon.
Post by Kevin Squire
Stefan, are you trolling again? ;-P
http://julialang.org/blog/2012/02/why-we-created-julia/
On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Stefan Karpinski <
Post by Stefan Karpinski
Version 1.0 will be released around this time next year.
Post by Pileas
Greetings,
I have been following the development of Julia for sometime now and
I am really thrilled to know that you guys have reached version 0.3.11.
To my understanding sometime in the near future you will release the
new version 0.4.0., a version that it is supposed to bring many changes.
My question is simple: when is Julia expected to "mature", so that a
"universal" (more or less) documentation (or maybe more thorough books than
those that exist by now) will follow and less bug fixed will be needed?
I wish you the best!
Tony Kelman
2015-07-29 17:00:38 UTC
Permalink
I guess the waters are a little muddied here lately with Rust having
recently put such a big emphasis on stability and reaching 1.0, actively
telling people not to use the language prior to that point, and seemingly
having really high expectations about how long 1.x will last for. They have
a much smaller standard library than we do, but I would think trimming ours
down to the bare minimum would be necessary before calling the language
1.0. Maybe that could just as well be a 2.0 or 3.0 target instead.
Post by Stefan Karpinski
I do believe that other languages have not really followed the semantic
versioning specification (can't blame them really since it didn't exist)
and have introduced backwards incompatible changes in minor versions. If
we're going to follow semver, then we will very likely want to make major
releases more often since we will probably have some backwards incompatible
changes we want to introduce periodically, even if they're not huge.
Actually considering that we've been more strict about version discipline
than absolutely required by semver for 0.x.y, maybe we could pull a GCC and
just start treating major number the way we've been treating minor. It
might not be all that different, except we'd be able to do the "backporting
features" thing and have a very good way of dealing with it. So I retract
my incredulity.
Post by Stefan Karpinski
Doing more frequent major releases than has been traditional for
programming languages strikes me as not a terrible idea, honestly.
Post by Tony Kelman
I'm with Kevin, having followed development (too) closely for the last
year and a half I find the prospect of 1.0 any time during 2016 totally
ridiculous and unrelealistic. Unless you fully anticipate releasing 2.0
some time in 2017.
Post by Stefan Karpinski
That's literally the only part of that post that I would change :-)
But no, I'm not trolling, 1.0 should be out next year. Predicting down
to the month – or even quarter – is hard, but that's what I think we're
looking at. I'll post a 1.0 roadmap issue soon.
Post by Kevin Squire
Stefan, are you trolling again? ;-P
http://julialang.org/blog/2012/02/why-we-created-julia/
On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Stefan Karpinski <
Post by Stefan Karpinski
Version 1.0 will be released around this time next year.
Post by Pileas
Greetings,
I have been following the development of Julia for sometime now and
I am really thrilled to know that you guys have reached version 0.3.11.
To my understanding sometime in the near future you will release
the new version 0.4.0., a version that it is supposed to bring many
changes.
My question is simple: when is Julia expected to "mature", so that
a "universal" (more or less) documentation (or maybe more thorough books
than those that exist by now) will follow and less bug fixed will be needed?
I wish you the best!
Tomas Lycken
2015-07-29 20:35:47 UTC
Permalink
There was an interesting discussion on the dev list not long ago
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/julia-dev/CYhPCQ4rCLY/ByyIW_Ka0ooJ> about
the release schedule of Julia. Although it focused more on timeline and
less on version numbering, it touched on several of the topics discussed in
this thread as well. We do have some “expectation problems” of our own in
the Julia community, for example as Tobi put it in the other thread:

the main issue is in my point that during a dev period feature come in and
people start to use the dev branch for regular development. The Compat
module is in my opinion made the wrong way around. What currently happens
is that unstable features are bypassed into a “released” package landscape.

Julia is an awesome project, and it’s going to be an awesome product when
it’s “done”. But currently, we’re in the middle of a phase of development
where you cannot expect to accurately predict where we’re going to be in
three or six months, much less predict a date for a 1.0 release (after all,
it was once said that *“we’ve been much more on top of the release process
this time”
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/julia-dev/CYhPCQ4rCLY/ByyIW_Ka0ooJ>* about
0.4, but we’re still falling behind schedule on this one too
). Don’t get
me wrong - I think this is totally fine for a project like Julia. We
*should* be experimenting, trying things out and taking the time to make
sure the decisions we make are the right ones.

But maybe we should stop expecting to have a production-quality product to
play around with.

(On the other hand, Julia programmers will probably always have high
expectations, considering Julia’s origins
<http://julialang.org/blog/2012/02/why-we-created-julia/>
)

// T

On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 at 7:00:38 PM UTC+2, Tony Kelman wrote:

I guess the waters are a little muddied here lately with Rust having
Post by Tony Kelman
recently put such a big emphasis on stability and reaching 1.0, actively
telling people not to use the language prior to that point, and seemingly
having really high expectations about how long 1.x will last for. They have
a much smaller standard library than we do, but I would think trimming ours
down to the bare minimum would be necessary before calling the language
1.0. Maybe that could just as well be a 2.0 or 3.0 target instead.
Post by Stefan Karpinski
I do believe that other languages have not really followed the semantic
versioning specification (can't blame them really since it didn't exist)
and have introduced backwards incompatible changes in minor versions. If
we're going to follow semver, then we will very likely want to make major
releases more often since we will probably have some backwards incompatible
changes we want to introduce periodically, even if they're not huge.
Actually considering that we've been more strict about version
discipline than absolutely required by semver for 0.x.y, maybe we could
pull a GCC and just start treating major number the way we've been treating
minor. It might not be all that different, except we'd be able to do the
"backporting features" thing and have a very good way of dealing with it.
So I retract my incredulity.
Post by Stefan Karpinski
Doing more frequent major releases than has been traditional for
programming languages strikes me as not a terrible idea, honestly.
Post by Tony Kelman
I'm with Kevin, having followed development (too) closely for the last
year and a half I find the prospect of 1.0 any time during 2016 totally
ridiculous and unrelealistic. Unless you fully anticipate releasing 2.0
some time in 2017.
Post by Stefan Karpinski
That's literally the only part of that post that I would change :-)
But no, I'm not trolling, 1.0 should be out next year. Predicting
down to the month – or even quarter – is hard, but that's what I think
we're looking at. I'll post a 1.0 roadmap issue soon.
Post by Kevin Squire
Stefan, are you trolling again? ;-P
http://julialang.org/blog/2012/02/why-we-created-julia/
On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Stefan Karpinski <
Post by Stefan Karpinski
Version 1.0 will be released around this time next year.
Post by Pileas
Greetings,
I have been following the development of Julia for sometime now
and I am really thrilled to know that you guys have reached version 0.3.11.
To my understanding sometime in the near future you will release
the new version 0.4.0., a version that it is supposed to bring many
changes.
My question is simple: when is Julia expected to "mature", so that
a "universal" (more or less) documentation (or maybe more thorough books
than those that exist by now) will follow and less bug fixed will be needed?
I wish you the best!
​
Job van der Zwan
2015-07-30 13:08:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Kelman
I guess the waters are a little muddied here lately with Rust having
recently put such a big emphasis on stability and reaching 1.0, actively
telling people not to use the language prior to that point, and seemingly
having really high expectations about how long 1.x will last for. They have
a much smaller standard library than we do, but I would think trimming ours
down to the bare minimum would be necessary before calling the language
1.0. Maybe that could just as well be a 2.0 or 3.0 target instead.
Go did the same before. I think it's because both position themselves as
systems languages (with slightly different - but both valid - definitions
of "systems"). I don't think the need for stability is quite as important
for Julia - library maintainers still care of course, but there's not as
much infrastructure built on top of Julia that depends on guaranteed
stability.
Tony Kelman
2015-07-30 13:15:42 UTC
Permalink
Hah. Go's definition of "systems" is totally invalid everywhere in the
world except inside Google.

We also have nicer syntax macros than either of those languages. Compat
might start getting pretty ungainly over time, but we can use REQUIRE to
deal with that if the version range ever gets too intractable to support
everything within the same set of macros.
Post by Job van der Zwan
Post by Tony Kelman
I guess the waters are a little muddied here lately with Rust having
recently put such a big emphasis on stability and reaching 1.0, actively
telling people not to use the language prior to that point, and seemingly
having really high expectations about how long 1.x will last for. They have
a much smaller standard library than we do, but I would think trimming ours
down to the bare minimum would be necessary before calling the language
1.0. Maybe that could just as well be a 2.0 or 3.0 target instead.
Go did the same before. I think it's because both position themselves as
systems languages (with slightly different - but both valid - definitions
of "systems"). I don't think the need for stability is quite as important
for Julia - library maintainers still care of course, but there's not as
much infrastructure built on top of Julia that depends on guaranteed
stability.
Job van der Zwan
2015-07-30 13:38:24 UTC
Permalink
Let's not turn this into a tribal language pissing contest, please.
Post by Tony Kelman
Hah. Go's definition of "systems" is totally invalid everywhere in the
world except inside Google.
We also have nicer syntax macros than either of those languages. Compat
might start getting pretty ungainly over time, but we can use REQUIRE to
deal with that if the version range ever gets too intractable to support
everything within the same set of macros.
Post by Job van der Zwan
Post by Tony Kelman
I guess the waters are a little muddied here lately with Rust having
recently put such a big emphasis on stability and reaching 1.0, actively
telling people not to use the language prior to that point, and seemingly
having really high expectations about how long 1.x will last for. They have
a much smaller standard library than we do, but I would think trimming ours
down to the bare minimum would be necessary before calling the language
1.0. Maybe that could just as well be a 2.0 or 3.0 target instead.
Go did the same before. I think it's because both position themselves as
systems languages (with slightly different - but both valid - definitions
of "systems"). I don't think the need for stability is quite as important
for Julia - library maintainers still care of course, but there's not as
much infrastructure built on top of Julia that depends on guaranteed
stability.
Tom Breloff
2015-07-30 13:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Then what kind of tribal language contest should it be??
Post by Job van der Zwan
Let's not turn this into a tribal language pissing contest, please.
Post by Tony Kelman
Hah. Go's definition of "systems" is totally invalid everywhere in the
world except inside Google.
We also have nicer syntax macros than either of those languages. Compat
might start getting pretty ungainly over time, but we can use REQUIRE to
deal with that if the version range ever gets too intractable to support
everything within the same set of macros.
Post by Job van der Zwan
Post by Tony Kelman
I guess the waters are a little muddied here lately with Rust having
recently put such a big emphasis on stability and reaching 1.0, actively
telling people not to use the language prior to that point, and seemingly
having really high expectations about how long 1.x will last for. They have
a much smaller standard library than we do, but I would think trimming ours
down to the bare minimum would be necessary before calling the language
1.0. Maybe that could just as well be a 2.0 or 3.0 target instead.
Go did the same before. I think it's because both position themselves as
systems languages (with slightly different - but both valid - definitions
of "systems"). I don't think the need for stability is quite as important
for Julia - library maintainers still care of course, but there's not as
much infrastructure built on top of Julia that depends on guaranteed
stability.
Eric Forgy
2015-07-30 09:23:43 UTC
Permalink
Great news! :)
Post by Stefan Karpinski
That's literally the only part of that post that I would change :-)
But no, I'm not trolling, 1.0 should be out next year. Predicting down to
the month – or even quarter – is hard, but that's what I think we're
looking at. I'll post a 1.0 roadmap issue soon.
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